Looking for Advice, so a Poll....

[goddessfarmer]

[Poll #1058564]

Comments

[lyonesse.livejournal.com]

i think the land is kind of communal between you two, so charging him would be missing the point of having money that's *yours*.

i think you'd be a great practitioner of yoga, riding instruction, or both. imho having a job isn't just about the collected $$$, it's also a way to extend your talents into the world, and i think the world would be better off for that. i also think that having/managing one's own money is a valuable state for its own sake as well.

[goddessfarmer.livejournal.com]

I manage *his* money already. That would not be new.

[lyonesse.livejournal.com]

ah. well, that you could stop, or request wages for, i guess. my brother's an accountant for a nonprofit, i could ask him what he gets paid.

[lyonesse.livejournal.com]

oh, and isn't the meat money also yours?

[goddessfarmer.livejournal.com]

The meat money doesn't even pay for feed and fencing, let alone my time.

[lyonesse.livejournal.com]

perhaps nevertheless it should be directed into the "joc's $" stack rather than back into "communal funds" or "j's money".

[marmota.livejournal.com]

None of the checkboxes quite fit... while I agree with the more generalized sentiment that doing something with a qualified positive result (and your options given contain some that you've been doing for ages) helps make life worth living, it's typical of the dissonance between his outlook and yours that he measures that result in dollars.

[mrw42.livejournal.com]

I don't think you should be able to bill James for maintaining "his" land, because given all of the blood, sweat and tears you've poured into it, it has to be your (plural) land by now...

Do you think that it would make you happier to get a job? If so, either your second or third choices sound promising.

Unless James said something far different from what you are reporting, I'd take his comments as advice about how to make yourself happier and not as an ultimatum. In that light, answer #4 would be a non sequitur.

While you certainly know James much better than I do, I'd advise you to think carefully about his advice.

It has been my experience that James usually gives good advice, but that he sometimes gives it with a heavy hand. He typically has good insights about people, but sometimes he takes them two or three more logical steps and declares something surprising. If you think about what he is saying, though, his comments are usually based on some valuable insight. Discussing those insights can be very helpful in understanding yourself better.

I can't imagine that this is about wanting more family income... So, I'd assume that James has suggested that you get a job because he really does believe that it would make you happier -- either because of the job satisfaction you'd get, your ability to excel outside of your home/family, having your own independent source of money... It might be interesting to probe why James thinks that, and see if he has a good point.

[goddessfarmer.livejournal.com]

He still thinks of it as "his" land.
I do not think that having a different 'job' from the one I have now (household maintainer) would create any more happiness in my life. I like what I do.
My happiness is not measured in dollars.

[mrw42.livejournal.com]

I think it is great that you enjoy what you are doing, and I am not sure that an outside job is the right answer if you really don't believe that it would make you feel happier, more powerful or more productive. I'd still guess, though, that James' suggestion reflects his belief that a job would make you happier, not a lack of appreciation for what you currently do.

I do think that there is some extent to which control over money does equal power in a relationship, but it is unlikely that the income you would get from a part-time job would do much to change that balance.

There might be some things that you could do (if you both want to do them) to help balance the power in your relationship by changing the way that you think about money and expenses. The fact that James is the (only or primary) source of the assets and income doesn't have to mean that he owns or controls all of it.

(1) Do you (plural) have a shared understanding of your long term financial goals?

Even people who have a relatively large amount of money should think about things like when they want to retire, what lifestyle they want to have after retirement, how to fund their children's education, and what they want to leave behind for the next generation. I'm not asking if James has a plan... I am asking if the two of you have a shared plan for what you want to accomplish in these areas together. If you don't have a shared plan for these things, it might make sense to make one. You could then develop a mid-term (~5 year?) financial plan (how much can you afford to spend each year? how much income do you need? etc.) that is consistent with those goals.

(2) Do you (plural) have a good understanding of what you spend in a given year and what you spend it on? Do you have a shared understanding of whose expenses those are?

If not, it might be a good idea to try to recreate what you've spent in the last ~12 months. It might be particularly useful to try to break that down into different categories like: shared household expenses, other family expenses (vacations, etc.), child-specific expenses (clothes, education, hobbies, etc.), James' personal expenses (clothes, trains, etc.) and your personal expenses (clothes, horses, etc.). I think you would learn a lot just from trying to categorize these items. I wouldn't be surprised if there are things that you think of as "maintaining James' land" that James thinks of as "Jocelyn's hobbies". So, you might learn a lot more than how much you have spent.

(3) Do you have a mutually agreed annual budget?

If not, I'd suggest that you make a realistic budget for the next year. It could be based on your previous year's budget, with modifications for any specific one-time expenses you expect in the next 12 months (vs. one time expenses from last year) and adjusted, if necessary to be consistent with your long term goals.

This budget would include some huge chunk of money for what can be loosely termed "Jocelyn's hobbies", a chuck that James currently estimates at ~$30,000 per year. Hopefully you could reach agreement on a budget for this category that makes you both feel comfortable while keeping your overall budget in line with your financial plan. Then, that could be _your_ money. You could get new hobbies, drop old ones, save money for a few years for a major hobby-related purchase, or make other choices within that budget completely without the need to consult James or cross the money == power boundary in your relationship.

If you did decide to get a job, you and James could reach an agreement about what percentage of your income should go into shared/household expenses and what portion should augment your personal budget.

I asked a number of question above, but the answers are none of my business. These are questions that you and James could ask yourselves.

This type of thing (with much smaller numbers :-)) has helped in my relationships, and I am hoping it could help in yours. If you don't think it will help, feel free to ignore my advice.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

And what about childcare? Have you considered charging him for that? And for maid service?

If you're trying to figure out what work would make you happy, the book, Finding Your Own North Star is one of those specifically geared to figuring it out. I think that it's one of the better ones. Warning: it has lots of self-examination exercises and might not be easy to read, but that just means that it would be all the more important to do so.

I'm left to wonder why exactly you (or James) thinks you need to have money that is 'all yours'; does he think that the money he earns is all his? Do you feel like you need to ask permission to spend it and would like to have money that you don't feel beholden about? Do you feel like you need the freedom that money under your control would give? (understandable to feel these reasons, BTW).

[goddessfarmer.livejournal.com]

1. as near as I can tell
2. for 'big' purchases, yes, and any job I had would still not pay for those.
3. not really. for most things, don't really want it.

I do

[sarahshevett.livejournal.com]

I have my own checking account, and my own bills.
It does make a difference.
Even though my income pales in comparison to my mate's, just for plain old pocket money I like to have mine be mine that I made myself.
I try to pay for my obsessions ( goats, spinning, yard sale shopping) myself.
I like making money; I just don't like having a "job".
I think riding lessons, etc, are a good idea.

[feste-sylvain.livejournal.com]

Somebody seems to have a loose grasp on the economic implications of "marriage".

That said, having a number of financial instruments in your own name is probably a good idea anyway.

Should you have to "get a job" for these?

[whuffle.livejournal.com]

If I were in your shoes, I would want to know more about what went into James' thought process in making this declaration. Is this about feeling like you should have money which you can do anything you want with? Is this about his subjective view that you could make money with some of the things you currently do for free and therefore you SHOULD make money off them? I'd want to know more about what went into this thought before making any sort of decision. I'd also want to ask if he resented the money he makes that gets spent on "your needs". And I would want to discuss the subject of the time and effort you put into maintaining the land you live on. And the time and effort you put into housekeeping. And the time and effort you put into caring for your child.

Basically what all this sums up to for me is that I would want to have a whole lot more information before going forward. Not to say that you couldn't make a decision of your own based on the info you do have, but I have a feeling that it would ultimately not be the decision he expected you to make when he stated his thoughts in the first place. Hence, because he didn't communicate fully, he would be disatisfied with your choice because you couldn't possibly have made the "right decision" based on his thoughts without having shared them entirely....

Make sense?

Alot of times when halleyscomet and I have this sort of thought-process disparity, I insist on talking it out before going further because I know that I'm missing something vital that I can't recreate because I just don't think the same way he does.

[goddessfarmer.livejournal.com]

Oh wow, thank you. food for the next couples therapy session. I have no idea about some of those questions.

[whuffle.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. I guess that because I've known for a while now that I don't think the same way as my parents or my spouse, its one of the first things that comes to my mind when I am dealing with a situation like this. I spend time trying to figure out what I'm missing about the other person's thought process because I know that if I don't understand that then my actions may not bring satisfaction to either of us. One of my mom's favorite comments to toss off when I was a kid was, "don't expect me to be a mind-reader."

[koshmom.livejournal.com]

ooo good points

[chaiya.livejournal.com]

Steve and I have a joint account and each of us has our own checking account. We each make a set contribution to the joint account every paycheck, which is roughly commeasurate with our income levels, and so the bulk of our income is joined to pay things like the mortgage and utilities and such. But beyond that, my monthly income is my own. I buy people presents, or I buy myself things on ebay, or whatnot. It's nice to have pocket money.

It's definitely a thorny issue, though.

[goddessfarmer.livejournal.com]

made thornier by the fact that I haven't had a job that paid money since before we got married in 1993.

[intuition-ist.livejournal.com]

It sounds like the two of you should sit down and talk.

Before that, consider:
- How long has it been since you've held a paying job?
- How many high-cost hobbies/interests do you have (where, for example, if you were living on your own and making $50K per year, you would not be able to pursue due to lack of money)?
- How much of your time is taken up in taking care of James' stuff? (clothes, house, property, farm, bills, taxes, etc.) How much would he have to spend on people who do that sort of thing for a living to take care of stuff if you weren't interested in doing the things you do?
- How would it feel to have money of your own that you earned?
- How would it feel to be able to say to James "I don't care whether you like/approve of this thing I'm buying. It's not your money, I don't need your approval for this."

I should add here that I'm prejudiced. Most of my feminism comes through in this area. I think it is utterly appalling that for much of history, men controlled women by putting them on the economic leash of "I make the money, and you need my approval to spend it, and thereby I control your actions" I would slowly go insane if I were in a situation where I could not work and earn my own money. YMMV, of course, and significantly so.

[miekec]

Oy. Thorny issue. I think most of the previous comments already sum up most of what I would say. Of course my first instinct would be option a or d. But that's just me being pissed off. After thinking about it for a bit, I really think I'd need the context in which that was said, to properly address it. Definitely therapy-fodder.
When I first moved in, we set up a similar system to what chaiya described. We each have our own account, into which paycheck went. From there, we each made payments to joint account, as much as needed, as equally shared as we could. All joint bills and such and rent/mortgage comes from there. Any overflow goes into joint savings. And yes, with financial software you can be very precise because it keeps track of how much came from which account and such. Even the rent and mortgage we split hairs (happens with 2 people being overly picky) and calculated exactly who should pay which portion since A was with us only half time but he was J's financial responsibility, so I shouldn't have to pay for part of that. Yes, one can go too far. OTOH, once burnt, twice shy.

In your situation I can see that there is a visible gap in obvious income. That doesn't mean that there is a "your" or "his" money. I mean, as feste_sylvain points out, marriage hath its implications. On top of which, a lot of the stuff you do makes it possible for him to earn that visible salary. Childcare, accounting, basic house maintenance, foodservices, etc. If he really persists with this line of reasoning, you can re-negotiate who does what around the house, and how much he thinks your time and effort is worth. And put that much money into an account of your own. Or, taking it further, calculate how much it would cost to hire others to do the work you do now so that you can 'get a job'. Or rather, get a different job. What you are doing already *is* a job. Just not something he considers a job, apparently.

It's not an easy checkbox-solution problem.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

If he really persists with this line of reasoning, you can re-negotiate who does what around the house, and how much he thinks your time and effort is worth. And put that much money into an account of your own. Or, taking it further, calculate how much it would cost to hire others to do the work you do now so that you can 'get a job'. Or rather, get a different job. What you are doing already *is* a job. Just not something he considers a job, apparently.


The feminist in me says *this*.

[perspicuity.livejournal.com]

and don't forget to balance out that other than his day job (details not important) that i'm pretty sure he works the property as well, and in differing no doubt, but he's putting in the time.

i've some friends that had some difficulties a while ago. after they sat down and wrote it all out, it turns out that some of the grievances were perceptual, and a few other details popped up. for example: she complained she did all the house work/etc, raising the kids/etc, etc/etc. he just had a full time job; 50-60 hours a week. turn out on balance he did a significant amount of "uncounted house work", all the shopping, most of the cooking, all the yard work, and so forth on top of his job. she didn't have a job, but she was also doing a few things that turned up extra income they hadn't thought about, and well, in balance, they were much happier with what they discovered. it's not like either one of them was lolling about eating bonbons and watching daytime tv :)

#

[quietann.livejournal.com]

I don't think I should answer this publicly (or even on LJ), because it *is* (on a much smaller scale of course) an issue between Ben and me. And because I'd likely say something really rude. But part of the reason I work is so I don't have to ask Ben for money (the money I make basically goes to my hobbies etc.)

In any case, I know that you letting me ride for "free" is a problem to James. (And I am still planning to pay for Minnie's hock injection BTW.)

[quietann.livejournal.com]

PS, I have been thinking about paying for the lessons anyway. I can't pay a lot (w/o asking Ben for money, which I'd rather not do) but you ARE helping my riding, and it's gone well beyond just letting me ride Minnie so I can get my "horse wheels" back.

"Fair Share"

[quezz.livejournal.com]

I was in a marriage where the income disparity varied quite a lot. Sometimes, I made the money, sometimes my ex did. My ex always expected me to work, partly because he didn't always work himself. We shared finances, but sometimes fought over them, and I finally went off on my own to make myself happy and I got a "you took 18,000 dollars of my money away when you did your thing" as a response.

Personally, I don't think adults should feel they have to take care of another adult unless said adult cannot do his or her fair share due to some sort of disability. The question for you and James seems to be what the definition of "fair share" is. That sounds like something you can talk about in couples' therapy -- what is considered a fair share, and what is a considered an acceptable contribution? It may require some negotiation if your definitions are wildly different, or if the financial or personal circumstances of your household have changed enough to reconsider who makes what money.

Either way, it requires discussion. I know it's hard -- I solved it by walking and have not regretted it (now I know EXACTLY where my money goes!) but I definitely do not encourage such a solution unless absolutely necessary. I think it's more fruitful to hear the mind of your partner and see for yourselves how to work things out.

[sunspiral.livejournal.com]

A long time ago we had a discussion about re-framing perceptions. I think the poll above is indicative of a need to re-frame the whole question of money and power in your marriage.

Yeah, what he said

[sarahshevett.livejournal.com]

My thoughts exactly

[whuffle.livejournal.com]

Well chosen words and a very good point to be made.

Just thinking

[sarahshevett.livejournal.com]

Sort of on the same line, I hope you have some finances in your name.
Credit card, bank account..etc.
As a woman you need to have some things in your own name, just for your own security.
I think it's a good thing for all concerned.

[chocorua.livejournal.com]

My comment was made in the context of GF's equilibrium being seriously disturbed (see recent journal entries) by the question "would Chocorua spend $45K for Skippy, who would be our 3rd horse, for a total annual hobby cost of perhaps $30K/year". The previous horse I'd OK'ed was only $35K, and my thought was that if GF had worked even 8hr/week for the past few years and banked it, she'd have the difference, plus the confidence that she could have more.

As it is, I keep getting hints that if somehow I fail to provide the kind of money GF's hobby calls for, plus enough for the other luxuries she likes (we go through maybe 8X the MA median income yearly, and you don't see me wearing it, or driving it), she'll go seriously out of balance. And if it comes to hiring the work done, we already have more than 700 hours of outside help per year, so no big deal.

IMO an off-site job that involves showing up to schedule and working 4+ hours at a stretch will be a lot more beneficial than something that involves large amounts of driving and phone time relative to the actual work.

[goddessfarmer.livejournal.com]

"off-site job that involves showing up to schedule and working 4+ hours at a stretch"

As I recall, I had one of those until a year ago. And you basically forced me to quit. You want me to go back?

[chocorua.livejournal.com]

You certainly worked, but since the barn lost money, you didn't get paid, and you usually didn't get a discount on your horse board. So you were working to support the other boarders, not to bank money of your own.

[oneagain.livejournal.com]

This is a big issue, very big. Though I don't think I am qualified to give advice here, I would like to say that all that I have read seems for the most part reasonable.

From my perspective based on my quick read above, I get the sense that he might be suggesting something that would have a certain kind of effect on him were he in your situation (not that I think such projections always apply) and may be hoping that it would have such an effect psychologically on you--and such an effect might give you confidence and put you guys energetically closer as it would give you more in common--that is, the way you structure you time could have such an effect as to somehow put you in better alignment. I am not sure I am saying this well; does it make any sense? And even if my take on where he is coming from is spot on, what he might have in mind for you might not achieve what he thinks it will.

Also, I know that you feel insecure about your productivity, but reading what you accomplish in a day is quite extensive, and you manage to do what you do while healing some hardcore stuff--this is NO SMALL FEAT.

May love and wisdom guide your decisions:)

[oneagain.livejournal.com]

better alignment with him, that is.

[chocorua.livejournal.com]

This is close to the mark.

[donnad.livejournal.com]

Hm, Lets see, that's cooking (chef's wages), cleaning (housekeeper/maids wages), Working the farm (Farmhand wages), childcare (nanny wages), for something akin to 13 or 14+ years. I would check the going rate for these over the years and hand him a bill. But then I'm snarky like that.

Hi J. Nice pictures in the previous post, quietann pointed me over here.

Hope it all works out. But I would talk to him, find out his motivation, is he just being cheap or does he think your mood and/or well being will benefit from getting *off-site* a few days a week.
Maybe a part-time job would be good for you, to get away from all the things you do on the farm. A change of scenery a few days a week as it were. But I would make sure he knows that if you do start working off the property that he needs to kick in and pick up some of the things you do around the place. And that he would likely need to hire a new farmhand to pick up the slack.

[larksdream]

I guess I don't agree with most people here.

To me, marriage does not equal "everything is now held in common", so I don't relate to that thinking. Some things, yes, like if you buy a house together or if you need to educated the kids. But not everything. In my category of "not commonly held" is income from one person's work beyond their part of your joint commitments, stuff they owned before the marriage, and stuff they acquired as an individual. I don't feel entitled to any of that whether they're a partner, a sibling, a parent, or whoever. Clearly, opinions vary on this point.

I also have a distaste for dependence, and when one person can give or withhold money, there is a glaring and awkward dependence. I don't see that as desirable in, or even compatible with, a loving relationship between equals. So I choose not to be dependent on a partner for money.

Gifts are lovely, when they're given freely and with no strings attached. If someone can't give me a gift ungrudgingly, I personally don't want it. I'll buy it for myself or I'll do without. I don't want to get into a wheedling child / deciding parent modality with a partner, because I want to be seen as an equal.

So, that's me. *shrug* For what it's worth.

Personally, I'd lean towards asking for regular wages for the work you do on the farm, and paying for your own stuff out of your own money. But I'm not you... and also I don't know what the negotiated agreement between you and J. actually was. (There might not have been one-- I think a lot of people don't make their assumptions explicit until they come into conflict. :-/ )

[elusiveat.livejournal.com]

After skimming the comments, I think that Larksdream probably has the best idea here.

You and James have different views on how finances should be allocated. You need to come up with a system that will permit you each to pursue your own ideals in that regard.

But I also think that you should think seriously about the full implications before "billing him." Accepting payment implies a willingness to stop doing what you're doing if payment is withheld. Ideally you and he will agree on what is a fair wage for the work you do.

Approaching these questions with passive-aggressiveness (or anything that might be construed as such) is not going to make *anyone* happier.